I'll leave the disengagement coverage today to those who are there, and those who are watching. On the Israeli side, thoughts from Imshin [1, 2, 3, 4], Shai [1, 2, 3], Sarah, Yonatan, Allison, David, Lisa and Rinat. On the Palestinian side, Rafah Pundits, Rafah Notes and Laila El-Haddad [1, 2] weigh in.
I notice that:
1) Hezbollah flags have suddenly appeared in abundance in every picture from Gaza City to Rafah.
2) No news outlet I've seen so far has bothered to mention that fact, let alone comment on it.
Posted by: JSinger at August 16, 2005 03:00 PMGeneral impressions :
1) The conduct of the settlers is heartbreaking in its hysteria. Remember these scenes well, all who would casually plan a similar evacuation of tens of thousands, or more.
2) The sideline remarks of certain hard-left wing figures have been almost vomit-inducing. I won't repeat them here.
3) The policemen and soldiers are almost unnaturally calm, patient and professional. They've been prepared well.
4) The media is at its best, vigorous and sensationalistic, and eager to explore the minutiae of the lives of these strange 'settlers' we've heard so much about.
5) Sharon's recorded speech was weak. We're withdrawing because we pity the Palestinians' living conditions? Please, come up with something better!
Some interesting thoughts here. I agree with some points, disagree/undecided on others.
Posted by: Rabid Likudnik at August 16, 2005 04:01 PMEven your Palestinian correspondents, obviously intelligent, educated and thoughtful, can't think of a single way this might, somehow, vaguely, in a certain light, be a good-ish kind of thing for the Palestinian people, perhaps. Even for them, this is yet another evil thing that evil Israelis do out of their essential evilness. This is what I read from all Arab commenters and most European commenters on disengagement.
Don't get me wrong, I support disengagement. I am just more than ever convinced that it will have exactly ONE (1) net positive effect (on Israelis, Palestinians, or peace in the region). Israeli military will no longer waste resources on protecting Gaza settlers. Anything else -- better PR, sign of good faith, kick-starting a "dialog"...
It's deja vu all over again. I support disengagement the same way I supported Oslo. It's not like I've seen a better alternative. But pinning ANY hopes on this, other than the basic factual one I mentioned, is optimistic to the point of being delusional.
Posted by: angua at August 16, 2005 04:10 PMJSinger, don't expect the non-Israeli Media to mention anything about Hamas, chants of Death to the Jews, the vehermet anti-Semetism that Palestinians are indoctrinated with unless they absolutely have to, it would spoil their story line about the big mean white Israelis oppressing the noble, poor oppressed Palestinain people of color. (Hmm people of color, it that same as colored people?!)
Angua, what you wrote echoes my own beleifs concerning disengagement. It is the least worse option and will the IDF from the impossible task of trying to protect a handful of Jews in the midst of a million Palestinians.
Jonathan, once again thank you for the links to so many other interesting commentators.
Posted by: David All at August 16, 2005 05:53 PMGot to be better with more proof reading:
Meant to say, "will free the IDF from the impossible task of trying to protect of handful of Jews ..."
Re : the 'white oppressors' thing, this stereotype is aided by the fact that the WB Jewish population does indeed have one of the highest percentages of Ashkenazi Jews in the country.
But, this is notably and noticeably not true for the soon-to-be-gone Gaza Strip settlements.
Posted by: RL at August 16, 2005 06:58 PMJ. Singer:
Hezbollah flags have suddenly appeared in abundance in every picture from Gaza City to Rafah.
Could this be an analogy to the Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon - i.e., a claim that the Palestinians have now duplicated Hizbullah's achievements? Or could it have something to do with the rumors that certain Palestinian militants in the Lebanese refugee camps are planning a move to Gaza?
And what does Hamas think about it?
RL:
The conduct of the settlers is heartbreaking in its hysteria. Remember these scenes well, all who would casually plan a similar evacuation of tens of thousands, or more.
I doubt that anyone will 'casually' plan another evacuation, especially after this. It's clear now, if it wasn't already, that any future withdrawal will be divisive, traumatic and expensive.
At the same time, all those who doubted that the Israeli government could summon the political will to evacuate settlements now know that it can. We know the hard decisionses are hard, but we also know now that they can be made.
Sharon's recorded speech was weak.
Yeah, it didn't seem very inspiring, did it?
But, this is notably and noticeably not true for the soon-to-be-gone Gaza Strip settlements.
High concentrations of Indian Jews and Yemenites, right?
Angua:
Even for them, this is yet another evil thing that evil Israelis do out of their essential evilness. This is what I read from all Arab commenters and most European commenters on disengagement.
The bulk of the Palestinian media, at the moment, seems to be saying that this is a glorious victory for the resistance and a cynical trick by Sharon, without any apparent realization that the two claims are mutually contradictory. On the other hand, Israel is getting a good deal of credit in the European media (although not across the board by any means) and also with European governments. I think there really will be some diplomatic gain from this, especially in terms of the Israeli-European relationship.
I'm not expecting miracles from this, or even from the inevitable West Bank withdrawal. The best I'm hoping for is a leadership on both sides that's pragmatic and war-weary enough to follow on. I'm hoping, in other words, that Aluf Benn is right. But even if not, there's no better alternative.
And - although I know this is wishful - let's wait and see what the Palestinians are saying in a few months, when the development projects start to kick in and the greater freedom of movement starts to feel natural.
Official figures on the number of families evacuated and remaining in each settlement as of midnight local time.
Could this be an analogy to the Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon - i.e., a claim that the Palestinians have now duplicated Hizbullah's achievements? Or could it have something to do with the rumors that certain Palestinian militants in the Lebanese refugee camps are planning a move to Gaza?
The former had occurred to me as a best-case scenario. As for the latter -- that was discussed recently at Across The Bay, with Tony speculating that the Palestinian militias would be "disarmed" by migration to Gaza. As I'd said there, the only reason I can imagine why Abbas would do such a thing (unless he's completely lost his mind) is if Fatah decides they need more guns for a looming meltdown with Hamas. I'd be astonished if this amounts to more than a handful of warlords being moved, though.
And - although I know this is wishful - let's wait and see what the Palestinians are saying in a few months, when the development projects start to kick in and the greater freedom of movement starts to feel natural.
Yeah, I had the same initial reaction as Angua, but if Gaza gets better over the next few months (and not far, far worse) maybe the tone will become a bit more conciliatory.
Posted by: JSinger at August 16, 2005 11:16 PMPositives: the travesty of stealing land from the Gazans that have so little of it is no more; living rich in a world of abject poverty is no more; young soldiers dying for a few fanatics and exploiters is no more; the morass of Gaza will be a Palestinian problem.
Negatives for the naive: France will not support Israel; Gaza will continue its abject poverty for the foreseeable future; we still have the West Bank to deal with and the Palestinian have to deal with the refugee problem.
Posted by: shmuel at August 17, 2005 03:48 AMAm I alone in seeing some level of irony in Palestinians cheering people being taken from their homes of, in some cases, 30 years?
Don't get me wrong, I agree with most of the blue-tinged comments posted above. It just seems a little hypocritical to, on the one hand, ask for the right of return to the home of someone's grandfather and, on the other hand, cheer when someone else is removed from their home.
Posted by: Alex at August 17, 2005 04:27 AMI doubt they view it as hypocritical considering they believe the people being removed are the ones who stole their land in the first place. Is it hypocritical for the victim of a theft to cheer the police for removing his stolen radio from the possession of a thief and returning it to you?
Posted by: Ckrisz at August 17, 2005 05:25 AMAlthough there are some pockets of resistance, it looks like the IDF generally has gotten them under control and that the evacuation will be completed, knock wood.
Unfortunately, today there was another Israeli terrorist attack. This is the one thing that could really screw things up. Even if it doesn't stop the evacuations, it does not bode well for the aftermath.
Posted by: Joshua at August 17, 2005 11:44 AMShmuel:
Negatives for the naive: France will not support Israel
France is already supporting Israel. Sharon has been Chirac's new best buddy for months now, and Israel's been getting a lot of behind-the-scenes diplomatic backing from Paris. Once Sarkozy takes over, the relationship is likely to get even better.
Alex:
Am I alone in seeing some level of irony in Palestinians cheering people being taken from their homes of, in some cases, 30 years?
I don't see anything hypocritical in that. They're getting their own back.
There's a flip side of feeling compassion for the settlers as human beings who have to leave their homes: feeling happy for the Palestinians who will now get a chance at a normal life.
Joshua:
Although there are some pockets of resistance, it looks like the IDF generally has gotten them under control and that the evacuation will be completed, knock wood.
The IDF and the police are doing an incredible, professional job. They deserve the highest commendation. The settlers who are going peacefully also deserve our respect for their patriotic decision.
The same can't be said of the infiltrators who are conducting acts of sabotage and attacking the police, or for the terrorist bastard who killed three Palestinian workers in Shiloh today.
Unfortunately, today there was another Israeli terrorist attack. This is the one thing that could really screw things up.
Yup. And given that terrorism is a tactic of the marginalized, I'm afraid there's going to be more of it as the hard-core Yesha types feel their backs to the wall. The Shin Bet has a pretty good record of preventing Jewish terrorism over the years, but it hasn't yet caught up to the increase in extremism.
another Israeli terrorist attack ... is the one thing that could really screw things up
The "one thing"? I don't know -- you can probably hypothecate a dreary laundry list, including, oh, the transfer of Hamas weaponry, etc. to the WB: Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal declared on Wednesday that the Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and northern West Bank marked the beginning of the end of the Zionist dream in Palestine.... Abdel Al, who is better known by his nickname Abu Abeer, said his group had already begun transferring the technology of rockets and other military expertise to the West Bank. "We will transfer two-thirds of our budget to the West Bank," he said. "Our rockets have a range of 18 kilometers. This means that is we fire them from Kalkilya, they will hit the occupied city of
Tal al-Rabi [Tel-Aviv]."
It's well and good to decry Jewish terrorism, whose danger in the overall scheme of things I would wish neither to slight nor to exaggerate. Withdrawal is going to create a vacuum. Who and what will rush to fill it ought to be as much (I would in fact say, more) a concern as Jewish terrorism.
I feel...split here.
On the one hand:
1. It's good that the evacuations are happening. Inasmuch as I have/had a position on this, I was...a skeptical blue. Far more "Shiigata ga nai" than anything I would actually celebrate, I suppose.
2. The IDF and the Israel Police this week are writing the book on Domestic Support operations for much of the West, or at least a chapter. With that in mind, they've executed the mission nearly flawlessly.
On the other:
1. Listening to Abbas has had me hanging my head in despair. You stupid fool, *must* you be so damnfool braindead as to go "On to Jerusalem"?
2. The Palestinians have been inactive, but have substituted action for some of the worst-timed, worst possible rhetoric I could have EVER imagined. A "No gloating" proposition from at least the PA would have been nice, y'know?
3. I went into this thinking the whole thing was underplanned, not properly "staffed" (in terms of staff work not seemingly being done), and generally slapdash.
I come out of it (so far) thinking that the IDF got *lucky* in many ways, and that this is definitely a one-trick-pony in terms of the planning and generally nailing down the details.
No Israeli government should be allowed to do something like this as slapdash as Gaza was planned *ever again*. The evacuees have every right to be angry in terms of just how heavy-handed Sharon was and how *little* there seems to have been planning for things like, I dunno, getting kids into schools. (Never mind that the evacuees were in denial; you're supposed to plan regardless, and cover for that possibility.) School year in Israel begins when? 1 September?
4. As above...Sharon was heavyhanded as hell. Necessary maybe, but even opponents of the settlements shouldn't let that happen twice. If you're pulling someone from their home, you can AFFORD to go slowly, be calm and soothing, and generally work with a light touch, dammit. It costs nothing to show em that level of respect.
5. Unidentified Palestinians snatched a French TV soundguy today, prompting France to threaten to cut off all aid (econ and humanitarian) to the PA. Um, when you act this stupid *this often* (this is the 3rd time or something?), I'm going to wonder why we the international community should trust you with your own state.
Why is there no vicious PA slapdown in progress?
Is the Palestinian Government-Wannabe really that bumbling and incompetent, or do they just do this for the cameras?
Posted by: John Penta at August 17, 2005 02:39 PMWm. Tyroler:
The "one thing"? I don't know -- you can probably hypothecate a dreary laundry list, including, oh, the transfer of Hamas weaponry, etc. to the WB
I'm not Joshua, but I suspect he was talking about the period when the pullout is in progress. Qassams in the WB are a longer-term threat.
Although even in the immediate term, Jewish terrorism isn't the only thing that can cause trouble; the PA and Hamas may have agreed to keep things quiet for the duration, but that doesn't seem to go for Islamic Jihad.
John:
The Palestinians have been inactive, but have substituted action for some of the worst-timed, worst possible rhetoric I could have EVER imagined. A "No gloating" proposition from at least the PA would have been nice, y'know?
I'm inclined to cut the PA a little slack on rhetoric. It's an election year, the PA and Hamas both want to claim the Gaza withdrawal as their own, and whoever doesn't argue that it's a nationalist achievement might sacrifice an electoral advantage. Hamas is gloating, so the PA is in a position where it has to gloat. How the gloating will play in Israel isn't Abbas' primary concern right now.
At the level immediately below Abbas - including Erekat, who's a big factor in diplomacy - the PA is talking about "extending our arms to Mr. Sharon." That probably doesn't mean much either, but the contrast between Abbas the Fatah leader and Erekat the official PA spokesman may be worth considering.
As above...Sharon was heavyhanded as hell. Necessary maybe, but even opponents of the settlements shouldn't let that happen twice.
At the very least, he should have explained himself better. It's hard for the public to get behind a plan if they don't know what it's supposed to achieve.
Um, when you act this stupid *this often* (this is the 3rd time or something?), I'm going to wonder why we the international community should trust you with your own state.
If "ability to run own state" was the main criteria for the international community to support one, there would be a dozen new countries tomorrow, from Chechnya to Kurdistan to Somaliland.
I am, frankly, with the Palestinians on this one. There is NOTHING they could do that would somehow diminish the international support they currently have. Did blowing up the American envoy somehow diminish American support? Does spending European money on weapons or Madame Arafat's new condo instead of food reduce the flow of the Euros? So, why *not* kidnap Frenchmen? (I mean, there are plenty of reasons to not kidnap Frenchmen. But fear of retribution from the French or a changing opinion of the "international community" is not one of them.)
Posted by: angua at August 17, 2005 05:21 PMToday, Thursday in Gaza, the IDF and Israeli Police have been busy removing demonstrators who have barricaded themsevles in Synagouges in the settlements and refuse to leave. From the news stories, it appears that most settlers have already left and the ones remaining are mostly demonstrators who sneaked into Gaza. Several Israeli soldiers and police have been injured in last several days several seriously, mostly in clashes with settlers and demonstrators.
One, an IDF Lt., was critically wounded when his command was trying to silence a Palestinian sniper shooting at settlers in Gaza. He is now in a coma. Story is at David's blog, Treppenwitz. David is asking for our prayers and I think everyone should go over there and leave our wishes for his friend's recovery.
Posted by: David All at August 18, 2005 05:58 PM